Jo Hovind Update

Kent Hovind’s weblog, normally devoted to imaginary conversations, now has a bit of news: Kent’s wife Jo was sentenced at the same time as her husband, to a year and a day. Her sentence was stayed pending the outcome of the appeals. Well, the appeal has gone nowhere, so she is now in prison in Marianna, FL.

At the minimum-security satellite camp of FCI Marianna, to be more exact.

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88 Responses to Jo Hovind Update

  1. Flabberghasted says:

    Okay, can you give some examples of things that were first discovered through faith, and later confirmed to be true? Be specific.

    1.(Astronomy)The earth is hung on nothing. Just as today’s space photos so clearly show. Job 26:7

    2.(Oceanography/Geology)There are springs in the oceans. They were discovered even though only 5% of the ocean bottom has so far been explored. The problem for Bible scoffers is they were not discovered until 1977. Genesis 7:1 Prov 8:29

    3.(Biology)The scientific study of cells, not done until 1855, shows we came from our parents cells, they from their parents, and so on. Our first cell was in the loins of our parents before we were born. Genesis 35:11 Hebrews 7:5,10

    4.(Archeology)After centuries of skeptics taunting the accuracy of the Bible, the city of Ur was found in 1854. And what a marvelous city it had been! Genesis 12:1 and 15:7. Nehemiah 9:7, Hebrews 11:9-10

    5.(Meteorology)Coriolis discovered that the winds do turn about at the equator; going clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere, and going counter clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere. Ecclesiastes 1:6

    —–>◦There are wind circuits – 28 of them as diagrammed in the World Book Encyclopedia.

    —–>◦Although the wind blows intermittently with different velocities near ground level, it does blow almost continuously in the atmosphere; thus the jet streams and the diagram of 28 circuits.

    —–>◦The problem for Bible scoffers is these wind characteristics were not discovered until the early 1800s.

    6.(Physics/Chemistry/Atomic Theory)Twentieth century discoveries into the atom reveal that all matter is mostly empty space, and can be compressed into mere specks of mass, just as the Bible said. Isaiah 40:12,15

    7.(Astronomy/Geology)The Bible talked about a circular earth while mankind still believed the earth was flat. Isaiah 40:22

    Be sure to also address the large number of things that were believed on faith, and later shown not to be true (like the sun going around the earth).

    You can’t hold God responsible for all the ridiculous claims of those who believe in Him. Unless the the Bible addressed it, it was just pure opinion. And who could blame them for making the claims they(early geocentrists) did. From a very young perception of the universe you could grant that it appears that way. Besides, even though the “geocentric” view is still held today by a few people, the Bible does not require it and clearly observation shows the earth’s movement. Personally I believe the verses used to support geocentrism are weak in application and are clearly taken out of historical and scriptural context. Besides the Bible’s purpose is not to support scientific endeavors (even though I believe that it is scientifically accurate in it’s claims). It would be like reading The Diary of Anne Frank and saying it’s not a true story simply because she mentions the sun rising. The real purpose for His revelations are clearly for a few obvious purposes:

    —>It explains life and death.
    —>It gives history humans should know about.
    —>It reveals Jesus as personal savior who voluntarily died a very humiliating and painful death that his human creatures might have eternal life.
    —>It explains God’s plan and purpose for his human creatures.
    —>It contains instructions from the creator advising humans how to live their physical lives to obtain the most fulfillment and happiness.
    …among others.

    Tell me: what would the Hindu have to do or show in order to convince you that you’re wrong, and that there are multiple gods? Again, be specific.

    For starters they would need to reasonably explain reincarnation for one:
    If there is one soul per person, and if the population of the world is increasing (which it is), where are all these new souls coming from? In other words, the population has more than doubled from around two billion at the turn of the century to over 6 billion today. If each of these 5 billion souls have lived at least ONE past life, where did the over 4 billion souls come from which did not exist before 1900 AD ? It seems there are several possible solutions to this problem:

    1. These new souls are coming from animals or inanimate matter.

    2. These new souls are coming from other planets (Shirley Maclaine has offered this as a solution I have heard), ETs and stuff.

    3. New souls come out of “thin air” or are somehow created by God or perhaps have always existed so they are actually “old” souls.

    4. or there are people with several souls — perhaps 3 or more.

    Since the standard definition of reincarnation involves one soul per person, that rules out option 4. Now if you accept the classic Hindu concept of reincarnation — the idea that you could come back as a cockroach if you lived a really bad life — then option 1 is a possible solution. If you are nuts, then option 2 is possible.

    Again, if the standard definition of reincarnation holds true, new souls are not created out of thin air, but already exist and are just taking on new lives and new bodies. So option 3 is out.

    Perhaps I misunderstand their concept of reincarnation but as far as I know it defies common sense. Prove this is a viable option for life and it’s purpose and then we can talk multiple gods. Besides multiple gods causes nothing but confusion anyway. No solid standard and no solid promises. Unless they could show that all of their god’s are on exactly the same page. The Bible is consistant.

    But I am not here to defend Christianity against Hinduism. (At least I didn’t realize I was.)

    What’s the last book on evolution, written by an evolutionary biologist, that you’ve read?

    I will shamefully admit I haven’t picked up a book on evolutionary biology since high school over 10 years ago. However I do frequently visit Mr. Dawkins and others’ (some of which you mentioned) websites. I hate getting blind sided in arguments a lot so I try to force mysef to at least consider some of the more popular claims against my God. I’ll admit it’s tough pushing through the obvious agenda’s in most evolutionists writings to try and get at the facts. I’m sure you can relate when visiting many creationists and religious websites. I too struggle with the same on both sides of the argument. It’s actually kind of why I popped my head in here originally.

    If I were making the sorts of outlandish claims about the Bible that you’re making about evolution, you’d be entirely justified in telling me to read it, or at least the relevant passages.

    And you have! I admire that honesty in a person, I try to hold myself to the same standard. But, “we all stumble in many ways.” James 3:2

    It may surprise you to learn that earlier, I wrote several paragraphs explaining that you were misquoting Hebrews 7, but when I reread the chapter more carefully, I realized that it was in fact I who was mistaken.

    It does! And I can’t tell you how much this inspires me! I was thinking about this last night when I was at walmart with my son. I took a stroll through the book section to see if I could find any of Dawkins books. Unfortunatly they weren’t carrying any of them. Another funny thing is that I did find a book that caught my attention called, “So You Don’t Want to go to Church Anymore: an unexpected journey” by Wayne Jacobsen and Dave Coleman. I haven’t been able to put it down! And I rarely read hard copys of books. Another reason for my delay in responding.😦 sorry ’bout that. I highly suggest it to you. There is a scene in there where there is an argument between some pushy evangelists and some rather harsh critics. Kind of like this website actually. And it is awesome how the argument got diffused. But I digress..

    Does that mean that you refuse to read Dawkins because he’s an advocate of evolution?

    If only that were the only reason then this would sting me to death but it’s not. Of what I have read about Dawkins and seen of him on video from both sides of the debate, I have a hard time overcoming he’s pure disdain and hatred for anything religous especially Christianity. He goes around picking fights like a bully, and here I am the little lay Christian trying to put the peices together and big boy Dawkins comes along kicking the puzzle peices flinging them across the floor and then laughing at me. Just something I learned in Elementary school that you try to avoid those people or stick up for yourself and risk getting punched in the nose. No sensible person would ultimately allow someone like that to change them. Sadly so many people do let that happen and so they join his gang of thugs and help beat on “poor, defenseless Christians” never realizing that the truth is that deep down inside they are just afraid of getting beat up by the bully. My only hope is that there would be someone the bully trusts to someday say “HEY! Enough already, leave them alone.” But sadly those are the conclusions that are found so often in movies and pop culture that rarely find their way into real life. But I keep hoping none-the-less. Besides when I am asked to buy his books or read them I feel like I’m being asked for my lunch money. Perhaps I can overcome this and try to consider what he and others say about it. Maybe I will look at it like this from now on and deal with the bully like I should as an adult instead of like the scared kid avoiding the bully in the hallway.

    Thanks for this comment and the previous two as well. My dad used to always say, “No one knows better how to be a Christian than and atheist.” These last few words you spoke, proves he was right.

    We’re talking about evolution, here, not cosmology. The fact that you think the Big Bang is somehow connected to evolution reveals just how woefully ignorant you are.

    Simple mistake. Sorry about that. When speaking to others about evolution having considered all the facts presented to me and thinking about the wide implications of such a theory I often meld the different theories since they all need to be cohesive for it all to work. I understand the science is young and haven’t figured it all out but what is currently believed to be the processes and conditions required for evolution to take place or even start let alone the problems with the theory itself convince me it is not worth throwing my Faith in God away when there are simple explanations to cast serious doubt on the opposing viewpoint of the evolutionist.

    Seriously, dude. Go learn about evolution. What you’re doing is like me saying “The Bible only says Adam and Eve had three kids. So where did Jesus come from?” If you won’t read Dawkins because he’s one of those naughty atheists, then read Kenneth R. Miller, who’s a devout Catholic. Two books that leap to mind are Only a Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul and Finding Darwin’s God.

    Catholic….Atheist…what’s the difference?😉 (I’m gonna be hated on from both sides on that comment.) But, honestly I would rather read Dawkins.

    Or if you don’t read Catholics either, try Francis Collins’s The Language of God. Collins, you may recall, is currently head of the NIH, former head of the Human Genome Project, and also an (annoyingly outspoken) evangelical Christian.

    I may just have to pick that one up, thanks. Perhaps we can go through it together?

    What you smell is me bending over backwards to try to extend the definition of “faith” to something that might conceivably apply to what scientists do.

    Don’t try so hard, it’s pretty simple…

    Hebrews 11:1 “1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

    you had to have seen that coming.

    Except that the Bible is chock-full of God smiting people, cities, and countries for their wickedness.

    Again I am glad I am not God. But you surely realize that I do understand that the Creator of the Universe reserves the right to punish His enemies right? He was Just and Consistant too remember. He is not a respector of persons or nations. The nation of Isreal has suffered more of His wrath throughout the ages than the Gentile nations. He was even compassionate and forgiving with them as well. Consider Ninevah in Jonah’s day. And don’t forget Abraham’s audastic(not sure if thats a word) bargaining with God over the destruction of Sodom and Gommorrah(sp?) and many other examples.

    Okay, how about the Hyatt Dulles Garden Terrace (hotel bar), at 2300 Dulles Corner Blvd, Herndon, VA 20171, this coming Wednesday, Dec. 16, 2009 at 8:00 p.m.?

    If I lived in Virginia I would be happy to oblige. My wife is on bedrest with our second child due in April. My two year old just started potty training and I am pretty much on my own with taking care of my family. Especially since leaving the church, I however don’t think it would have made much difference if I were still attending. Why don’t you email me and I can see what I can do. I don’t want you spilling your personal affairs out in the open if it’s not necessary. I really do want to help if I can and if necessary.

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  2. arensb says:

    Flabberhasted:

    1.(Astronomy)The earth is hung on nothing. Just as today’s space photos so clearly show. Job 26:7 […]

    First of all, if you’re going to copy and paste other people’s work, you could at least have the courtesy to give them credit. Why is it that creationists seem unable to quote their sources? Is plagiarism not a sin?

    Secondly, the question was not “Is there any truth in the Bible?”, but rather “Is faith a reliable way of telling what’s true and what isn’t?”.

    Jews in Israel have faith that God gave them that land, while Palestinians in the same area have faith that God gave it to them. By all appearances, the 9/11 hijackers had great faith that they’d get 72 virgins in paradise. The hundreds of people in this study had faith that prayer would help them make it through heart surgery.

    Clearly, some of those people are wrong. So if a person says that they believe X on faith, how likely is X to be objectively true?

    You can’t hold God responsible for all the ridiculous claims of those who believe in Him. Unless the the Bible addressed it, it was just pure opinion.

    Ah, so if someone believes X on faith, but X is ridiculous, then that doesn’t count against the reliability of faith. That’s called counting the hits and forgetting the misses.

    For starters they would need to reasonably explain reincarnation for one:

    Okay, so let’s say that the Hindu gives a reasonable explanation (perhaps Brahma creates new souls, or maybe reincarnation doesn’t really work the way you think it does). Would you then admit that you were wrong, and that Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Krishna, and all the other Hindu gods exist?

    If not, what else would be required?

    But I am not here to defend Christianity against Hinduism. (At least I didn’t realize I was.)

    I’m not asking you to defend Christianity (or Hinduism). I’m trying to figure out what your standards of evidence are.

    However I do frequently visit Mr. Dawkins and others’ (some of which you mentioned) websites.

    And yet you make elementary mistakes like confusing biological evolution and cosmology, which leads me to conclude that you don’t understand what it is you’re criticizing.

    I was thinking about this last night when I was at walmart with my son. I took a stroll through the book section to see if I could find any of Dawkins books. Unfortunatly they weren’t carrying any of them.

    Most towns have a place called a library, that lets you borrow books so that you can read them without paying any royalties to the authors.

    I have a hard time overcoming he’s pure disdain and hatred for anything religous especially Christianity.

    I’m sorry you feel that way, but try reading one of his books on biology (you know, his area of professional expertise), rather than religion.

    I may just have to pick that one up, thanks. Perhaps we can go through it together?

    Unfortunately, I have more than enough on my to-read list at the moment. But if you have questions about specific points, we can certainly discuss them.

    Hebrews 11:1 “1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

    In other words, faith is an excuse to believe in something even though there’s no evidence for it. Is that correct?

    If so, why is that a good thing?

    But you surely realize that I do understand that the Creator of the Universe reserves the right to punish His enemies right?

    Are you saying that might makes right? Or are you saying that God almighty has enemies whom he needs to destroy before they harm him? (See also “What does God need with a starship?“.)

    At any rate, I think you’ve just demonstrated that destroying a city or country is something that the god of the Bible would plausibly do. So it’s reasonable for people like Pat Robertson to say so. So it’s odd that you would dismiss their opinions so quickly.

    Why don’t you email me and I can see what I can do. I don’t want you spilling your personal affairs out in the open if it’s not necessary. I really do want to help if I can and if necessary.

    There are no personal affairs to discuss. The Bible quotes Jesus as saying “Give to everyone who asks you“. You said that you obey that verse. So I’m asking you to send me a thousand bucks.

    You don’t even need to send a check. You can just send me an Amazon electronic gift card.

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  3. Flabberghasted says:

    First of all, if you’re going to copy and paste other people’s work, you could at least have the courtesy to give them credit. Why is it that creationists seem unable to quote their sources? Is plagiarism not a sin?

    You caught me. :*( sorry ’bout that. I actually thought about this after I hit the submit button. Not a good excuse but guilty as charged. I hope the author can forgive me. I will be more careful in the future. Anyway the content should stand on it’s own. And thanks for posting the link.

    Secondly, the question was not “Is there any truth in the Bible?”, but rather “Is faith a reliable way of telling what’s true and what isn’t?”.

    Again sorry for the confusion but I think the Hebrews 11:1 passage states my thoughts on that one. Wouldn’t you agree? Especially dealing with things that lack evidence? Like Evolution, Creation, and any other things that no human being was around for.

    You know I just thought of an illustration i’ve heard a few times and used on occasion: When I am driving down a 2 lane highway at 55 mph I have faith that the other person coming down the other side of the road at me at 55mph isn’t going to lose control of his vehicle just as he/she is passing by me at a combined rate of 110mph. If I didn’t truly believe that or have any faith I would stay locked up inside my home and then worry about the little things in my home that might cause me to get hurt or killed. I guess there is a misunderstanding you have of what Faith actually accomplishes. Faith gives you a reason to act a certain way. Your faith in the “evidence” for evolution causes you to despise anything contrary to it. My faith in God and the Bible causes me to say things to you like…”Even though I am convinced that you hate me (or at least what I symbolize to you)for what you think is my ignorance and stubborness to see things your way I still love you and hope that God reveals Himself to you in a way that you can comprehend at a time when you are ready to recieve it.” ~Me

    And I mean that truly Arensb.

    Clearly, some of those people are wrong. So if a person says that they believe X on faith, how likely is X to be objectively true?

    What I am saying is faith eliminates chance. Not the other way around. I cannot speak on anything except what I have experienced and so far what I’ve read in the Bible has not failed me in it’s purpose. I’ve actually been given no reason to believe otherwise. I guess I’m not out to always try and prove myself wrong. You all do a great job of that on your own. I question my faith sometimes but in the end it has always come out stronger.

    Ah, so if someone believes X on faith, but X is ridiculous, then that doesn’t count against the reliability of faith. That’s called counting the hits and forgetting the misses.

    Are we talking about the Bible or human opinion? Either way this can be found on either side of the debate, and doesn’t prove one side right or wrong.

    I’m not asking you to defend Christianity (or Hinduism). I’m trying to figure out what your standards of evidence are.

    Obviously not the same as yours unfortunately.

    And yet you make elementary mistakes like confusing biological evolution and cosmology, which leads me to conclude that you don’t understand what it is you’re criticizing.

    I am sure we are both guilty of this at some point or another.

    Most towns have a place called a library, that lets you borrow books so that you can read them without paying any royalties to the authors.

    I really don’t think this personal attack deserves a response. I think comments like these sum up why your people struggle with talking to believers like myself. I can be guilty of this when I try to discuss things with evolutionists and atheists among others. It’s so easy to get pulled into and can really hamper a fruitful discussion. I am sorry if I’ve done this to you or anyone here.

    I’m sorry you feel that way, but try reading one of his books on biology (you know, his area of professional expertise), rather than religion.

    Unfortunately, this attitude causes a lack of trust in his ability to objectively interpret any possible evidence in his field.

    Unfortunately, I have more than enough on my to-read list at the moment. But if you have questions about specific points, we can certainly discuss them.

    I may just take you up on that someday.

    In other words, faith is an excuse to believe in something even though there’s no evidence for it. Is that correct?

    If so, why is that a good thing?

    Cuz otherwise we would all go absolutely insane.

    Are you saying that might makes right? Or are you saying that God almighty has enemies whom he needs to destroy before they harm him? (See also “What does God need with a starship?“.)

    Not Him, His creation. He loves us. Kind of like your kids (if you have them) if someone or something was threatening their lives would you not also do anything to protect them? His wrath is justified when you look at it from that perspective. We are so much like Him it’s hard to believe that He didn’t create us.

    At any rate, I think you’ve just demonstrated that destroying a city or country is something that the god of the Bible would plausibly do. So it’s reasonable for people like Pat Robertson to say so. So it’s odd that you would dismiss their opinions so quickly.

    I apologize for not making this clear. It’s not necessarily what he says but how he says it. He states things as fact or that he knows this was God’s doing. It’s one thing submitting something as a possibility but when you try to tell people that it’s a direct revelation of God you better be prepared to back it up with some phenomenal proof. The prophets and early Christians performed miracles proving what they said and wrote were from God. (barring mass hysteria as a possible explanation)

    There are no personal affairs to discuss. The Bible quotes Jesus as saying “Give to everyone who asks you“. You said that you obey that verse. So I’m asking you to send me a thousand bucks.

    You don’t even need to send a check. You can just send me an Amazon electronic gift card.

    Well I don’t have $1000 unfortunatly and I do have a family to care for. Even though I know you are trying to take advantage of me I am willing to give you something. Will you settle for something more reasonable? I can’t help but feel like you are holding me upside-down and trying to shake my pockets dry. I will need your email address to send it to you.

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  4. Flabberghasted says:

    By the way Jo is out of prison now. Last I checked wikipedia hadn’t updated this. I don’t know how to update wikipedia cuz everytime I try on anything(not just the hovind page) it gets deleted with no explanation in the discussion. but whatever.

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  5. Fez says:

    Flabberghasted Says:

    By the way Jo is out of prison now.

    Oh? Her original sentencing was for a year and a day, starting in Jan 2009. Not seeing this mentioned anywhere (not even @CSEBlogs). Do you have a source for this information?

    . I don’t know how to update wikipedia cuz everytime I try on anything(not just the hovind page) it gets deleted with no explanation in the discussion. but whatever.

    Statements of fact made without providing supporting evidence are frequently removed without comment.

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  6. Flabberghasted says:

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  7. Flabberghasted says:

    Fez your so much better than me.

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  8. Fez says:

    Flabberghasted Says:

    Fez your so much better than me.

    My what is better than you?

    Do you run away from all uncomfortable discussions with non sequiturs or did you crack this out especially for me?

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  9. menes777 says:

    You know I just thought of an illustration I’ve heard a few times and used on occasion: When I am driving down a 2 lane highway at 55 mph I have faith that the other person coming down the other side of the road at me at 55mph isn’t going to lose control of his vehicle just as he/she is passing by me at a combined rate of 110mph. If I didn’t truly believe that or have any faith I would stay locked up inside my home and then worry about the little things in my home that might cause me to get hurt or killed. I guess there is a misunderstanding you have of what Faith actually accomplishes. Faith gives you a reason to act a certain way.

    I think it is you that doe not understand what Faith accomplishes. The problem with your illustration is that it means nothing. Every single day of your life could be filled with faith filled events. I have faith that when I walk the bones in my leg won’t break, that the ground beneath my feet won’t collapse, that my heart won’t stop beating, that the ceiling won’t fall, etc etc… Many Xians have used this to say that when you have faith in so many things in your life why not have faith in my god? However, consider the opposite of those things above. I have faith that when I walk my legs are going to break, that the ground and ceiling are going to collapse and that my heart will stop or even that the oncoming traffic is going to ram me head on. Having or not having faith in these things does not make them true or false. It is the thing itself that determines if it will happen or not. If the femur in your leg has degenerated it’s going to break when enough pressure is applied. If the floor is rotted by termites it’s going to collapse when you step on it. If the driver of the oncoming car is drunk or has some mental disorder they could possibly ram you. The point is that faith does not make something fact. Faith mainly guides us in what we want to believe. Many Xians have faith because they want to believe that their is something for us after we die. Something special and a place we can be with all of our loved ones. Faith that evil is going to punished in the end and that good prevails. However, it doesn’t make it true. Faith drives people to do many good things, but it always drives them to do many evil things. What you are making Faith out to be is that what was written in the bible later turned out to be proven true.

    1.(Astronomy)The earth is hung on nothing. Just as today’s space photos so clearly show. Job 26:7

    2.(Oceanography/Geology)There are springs in the oceans. They were discovered even though only 5% of the ocean bottom has so far been explored. The problem for Bible scoffers is they were not discovered until 1977. Genesis 7:1 Prov 8:29

    3.(Biology)The scientific study of cells, not done until 1855, shows we came from our parents cells, they from their parents, and so on. Our first cell was in the loins of our parents before we were born. Genesis 35:11 Hebrews 7:5,10

    4.(Archeology)After centuries of skeptics taunting the accuracy of the Bible, the city of Ur was found in 1854. And what a marvelous city it had been! Genesis 12:1 and 15:7. Nehemiah 9:7, Hebrews 11:9-10

    5.(Meteorology)Coriolis discovered that the winds do turn about at the equator; going clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere, and going counter clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere. Ecclesiastes 1:6

    —–>◦There are wind circuits – 28 of them as diagrammed in the World Book Encyclopedia.

    —–>◦Although the wind blows intermittently with different velocities near ground level, it does blow almost continuously in the atmosphere; thus the jet streams and the diagram of 28 circuits.

    —–>◦The problem for Bible scoffers is these wind characteristics were not discovered until the early 1800s.

    6.(Physics/Chemistry/Atomic Theory)Twentieth century discoveries into the atom reveal that all matter is mostly empty space, and can be compressed into mere specks of mass, just as the Bible said. Isaiah 40:12,15

    7.(Astronomy/Geology)The Bible talked about a circular earth while mankind still believed the earth was flat. Isaiah 40:22

    1. Technically the earth is hung on something, it’s called gravity. It binds earth to the solar system. It could also be said to be bound to the space time continuum.
    2. I don’t see anything in those verses about springs in the ocean. However, not too groundbreaking, someone sees a river flowing in the ocean and gestured that not only does water go in from where it is visible but other places as well.
    3. Not to be snarky but did you even read these verses? Those two verses speak nothing of cells in the body, even by the most loose definition of cells. This “…and kings will come from your body” Gen 35:11 is not another shocker. It would be quite obvious when babies came out of vagina’s that it came from her body. However, nothing that refers to cells and how each of them have a specific function or what they are made of (nucleus, mitochondria, etc…). Someone was really fishing for something there.
    4. The Koran refers to Mecca, does that mean Islam is true too? Proving a location to be real doesn’t prove anything else about the bible. It just proves a city named Ur was found. Although even then there is a bit of self fulfilling prophecy. You find a city in a location where Ur might be. How do you know it’s really Ur?
    5. I read that as the winds of the earth go in circles. That they didn’t understand wind was a movement of the air and so thought of wind as entity that moved and therefore since it was always around that it must turn around and come back at some point. To say that this supports the view that the writers of the bible understand the Coriolis force is really stretching it. If they had written something less vague and more to point of the winds change direction based upon location and the spin of the earth I would be more convinced.
    6. Again one of those let’s make the Bible fit the model and then claim that it supports something it wasn’t intended to.

    Isaiah 40:12
    “Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?”

    Seems to me he is saying that there is so much water how you could you ever measure it? Look he created the heavens with a wave of his hand. Look how much dirt and how massive the mountains there are, how could you measure them all? Yet nothing that tells me that all matter consists of 3 basic parts, one part positive, one part neutral and one part negative (although technically it would need to be many more than that).

    Isaiah 40:15
    “Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust.”

    This is pretty easy, that the nations of the earth are insignificant. Yeah if I want to try and shoehorn this into the description that there is alot of space in matter I could, but I could also say that this predicts the nations are all going to be vaporized by nuclear weapons. Or that Islands are really made of dust. The problem is that science first discovers these things without using the bible, then people like you come along and say hey look the bible knew this all along! However, in your haste to try and prove your what you believe, you have taken the bible out of context. Any vague verse can be translated into just about whatever you want it to say.

    7. I will let the Wiki doing the speaking for me

    “Isaiah 40:22

    There is an occasional opinion offered that an early statement of a spherical earth occurs in the 8th century BC, in Isaiah 40:22 “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth…”.[6] There are problems with this claim, the most obvious being that the text says “circle”, not “sphere”. The Hebrew word translated as “circle” is generally recognized as referring to a plane figure, perhaps the horizon, or possibly the vault of the heavens.[7] A secondary issue is that this text is part of Deutero-Isaiah, often ascribed to the 6th century BC (and thus roughly contemporaneous with Pythagoras).”

    He goes around picking fights like a bully, and here I am the little lay Christian trying to put the peices together and big boy Dawkins comes along kicking the puzzle pieces flinging them across the floor and then laughing at me.

    You know one person’s bully is another person’s champion. By the same reasoning you could say Kent Hovind was a bully too, that he went around picking fights hoping to out-rhetoric the competition. Would you consider Abraham Lincoln a bully for not letting the Southern States secede from the Union? I guess that depends on what side of the Mason-Dixon line you are on. 🙂 I am not comparing Dawkins to Lincoln but I think if he sees something false he is going to challenge you on it. Suppose I said that Saddam Hussein was found to have Nuclear Weapons stockpiled in his palace. Then I went and preached that to everyone I knew and blogged about it and so on or I said that the Xian church is a religion devoted to supporting pedophilia. Would someone somewhere out there fight me on it? Of course they would and with good reason, neither of those are based on fact or evidence to support those claims. Yet xianity can claim that they worship the one true god, that if you believe god sent his only son to be slaughtered for us you will go to heaven and then in the end the devil wins any opposition to it is considered bullying??? Would you walk into a math department start saying that TAN = SIN/SIN and not expect someone to call you an idiot? What Dawkins is tired of is people treating religion with kid gloves because they don’t want to appear as “bullies” but then crap like 9/11, JOnestown, the Inquisition and many more things happen because religion told people to do those things and people went along with it. So yeah he might kick your puzzle over because it’s false and it’s not only misleading people but it’s allowing some people to do horrible things in it’s name. He also might laugh at you too but it’s the sort of laughing you get if you were to piss your pants in grade school. Yeah it’s humiliating but you sure as hell won’t piss in them again if you can help it. Of course people’s natural reaction to anything is that they don’t want to be told they are wrong and they have been believing a lie for years. So naturally the messenger is considered a bully because he is the one telling them they are wrong. Yes the opposite is true that those who preach the bible are doing the same to evolutionists/atheists. Just don’t make it seem like we are the assholes and you are the good guys in this deal. It all depends on your Point of view.

    Not Him, His creation. He loves us. Kind of like your kids (if you have them) if someone or something was threatening their lives would you not also do anything to protect them? His wrath is justified when you look at it from that perspective. We are so much like Him it’s hard to believe that He didn’t create us.

    The problem here is that you want your cake and to be able to eat it too. To stretch your analogy if we are created by god we are all his kids right? To show favoritism to one is pretty lame even for a human parent (who have limited resources), but inexcusable for an powerful god. Also if god is all powerful, he should just wipe Satan out (and his little devils too) and put every human in heaven and live for eternity in peace and comfort? Even so he is also doing a crappy job of even protecting his own chosen people. Finally you can’t have it both ways, you can’t have a mysterious god who is nothing like us and a god who is so much like us that you can’t believe he didn’t create us. Those two are so at odds with each other it’s ridiculous that you even tried to use it as an argument. If we are so much like god we should be able to understand what he does. That just wipes out all that “god is so mysterious, god works in unusual ways” nonsense.

    I apologize for not making this clear. It’s not necessarily what he says but how he says it. He states things as fact or that he knows this was God’s doing. It’s one thing submitting something as a possibility but when you try to tell people that it’s a direct revelation of God you better be prepared to back it up with some phenomenal proof. The prophets and early Christians performed miracles proving what they said and wrote were from God. (barring mass hysteria as a possible explanation)

    This is what we have been pushing to you all this time, you hold Mr Robertson’s foot (or feet🙂 ) to the flames about proof but when the question is turned on you, you refer to faith and the bible. You can’t pray to your god and have him come talk to me can you? Why is that early in Xianity miracles were common day events, that almost everyone could witness. Then as time went by (and overall understanding increased) miracles became less and less. Till finally about the only miracle that happens today is that we see Jesus in toast. Yes you can claim that miracles happen daily that are covered up by the news media, but often times what you call a miracle I call a triumph of the human spirit and determination. What has happened to the old testament miracles where fire would be called down from the heavens? If Kent Hovind went to debate someone and that guy was incinerated in a ball of flame from the heavens that would be more of a miracle. Let’s say instead of that second jetliner crashing into the WTC tower, that a huge hand came out and picked it up and placed it down safely. I say the second because by that time the whole news media was focused on those towers. Yet nothing like that happens at all. I am sure you are thinking that miracles happen all the time but I refused to accept them as such. However, just because you can’t explain them doesn’t mean that they are a miracle.

    Well I don’t have $1000 unfortunatly and I do have a family to care for. Even though I know you are trying to take advantage of me I am willing to give you something. Will you settle for something more reasonable? I can’t help but feel like you are holding me upside-down and trying to shake my pockets dry. I will need your email address to send it to you.

    But to be a real Xian you must live entirely by faith not by what you think you can or cannot do. Jesus said to sell all of your possessions and take up the cross. You know what though, if your god gave you $1,000,000 to give to me and ArensB and Fez and whoever else I would be (and maybe those others) a believer for life. Not that I am saying that I am tempting you god, but that amount of money would be 1) beyond your ability to just give 2) beyond your ability to win (well possibly but it would take some time). In short it could not be explained away so easily.

    However, what I think will happen is that the rationalizations will come out for why he won’t do this. He doesn’t want to wreck the economy, he doesn’t think you deserve it, he wants you to earn your money, you must believe first and then he will send the money (what you haven’t gotten the money yet? you must not believe enough), money given isn’t as appreciated as money earned, and so on so on so forth. The sad thing is that this stops many Xians from giving to those who are truly needy, such as they are needy because they are sinners. They got themselves into this, they can get themselves out. If they were conservative and wise with what they had god wouldn’t be punishing them. God gave this money to me and I deserve it. It doesn’t take much effort to see it as well. You have mega churches that can afford to put up a huge gold cross (not real gold but expensive still) and can host huge parties with blow up machines and hired actors and so on. Yet people go hungry and abused women can’t find a place to sleep because instead of spending that money where it matters, they spend money on glitter. To attract more people to the church and keep the cogs fueled and turning. Sorry I have diverged immensely but the point is that you (yes you) don’t live on faith alone and that most Xians don’t live on faith either. And I could care less about getting any of your money (although it’s always nice), I am trying to show you that you aren’t a Xian because you believe or have faith. You have faith because you want to believe in what Xianity has to offer, at best what is in store for you later and what is offers you now and at worst, what will happens to those who don’t believe.

    Like

  10. menes777 says:

    Fez your so much better than me.

    I think he left out the ______________ to have a fill in the blank answer. 🙂

    Nah Flab, you’re better than me. 😛

    Like

  11. Flabberghasted says:

    1. how many Christians has God sent to this site to try and reason with you? (hmmm)
    2. I am still waiting for that email address to send the money
    3. As for your comments about churches and megachurches. I agree completely and this is why I no longer participate.
    4. No matter what is said and no matter how nicely and lovingly you will always attack like a rabid dog.
    5. I must also be consistent and obey Matthew 7:6.

    Have a lovely life, and from God to me to you, “I love you all.”

    Like

  12. Fez says:

    Flabberghasted Says:

    1. how many Christians has God sent to this site to try and reason with you? (hmmm)

    Zero.

    2. I am still waiting for that email address to send the money

    I never asked you for any.

    3. As for your comments about churches and megachurches. I agree completely and this is why I no longer participate.

    I made no comments to you about churches or megachurches (not that there’s any significant difference between the two save a simple size metric)

    4. No matter what is said and no matter how nicely and lovingly you will always attack like a rabid dog.

    Nobody has attacked you. Would you feel more welcome if I got you a cross, some nails, and asked you to hang around for a bit longer?

    5. I must also be consistent and obey Matthew 7:6.

    Not because you think it’s a good idea but simply because it’s a requirement from your Book of Official Rules, right?

    Like

  13. Flabberghasted says:

    To Fez:

    I was talking to menes777 smartypants. What? You couldn’t figure that out?

    Thats all I’m done.

    Like

  14. Fez says:

    Flabberghasted Says:

    To Fez:

    I was talking to menes777 smartypants. What? You couldn’t figure that out?

    Thats all I’m done.

    Please allow me to answer your question with a question; how the hell is anyone supposed to know who you’re directing a response to when you can’t take the time to provide any reference and your contribution is content-free?

    Like

  15. arensb says:

    Flabberghasted:

    Thats all I’m done.

    Does this mean you’re abandoning the discussion?

    Like

  16. menes777 says:

    1. how many Christians has God sent to this site to try and reason with you? (hmmm)

    Let’s see, we have one that says this…

    What a bunch of guilt ridden fags.

    Followed by your comments that I am prideful, arrogant and retarded. Then your only reasoning seems to be about your faith and your interpretation from the bible. While there is nothing wrong with this, it only reinforces what you believe in to yourself and possibly to others. However, in a discussion with people who were at one point believers (at least I use to be) it doesn’t really add any reasonable discussion to the mix.

    Also why send anyone when he could speak directly to me? Again, what does God need with a starship???

    2. I am still waiting for that email address to send the money

    That was Arensb that mentioned the email, like I said, I don’t want money I want to see your god give the money to us. I don’t mean that in a taunting kind of way, I know you can send me money.

    3. As for your comments about churches and megachurches. I agree completely and this is why I no longer participate.

    The point of that was, that you can send me (or whoever) a certain amount of money, a church can spend whatever it has on itself to attract followers. You sending the money to someone is no different.

    4. No matter what is said and no matter how nicely and lovingly you will always attack like a rabid dog.

    I have to disagree with that. I think that I have presented my arguments thoughtfully and with relative courtesy. If that is not the case I would have expected some moderation from the other posters (and the blog owner). Having said that I am not going to agree just to appease your feelings. If I disagree with something I am going to post my opinion and I am going to post a logical argument against it. If I had resorted to ad hominems and other name calling I would see this as justified but that is not the case. If you cannot rebut me then so be it, but don’t run away saying that I am simply attacking you. Not to say my arguments are perfect but I have made a lot of effort to avoid calling you a retard. 🙂

    5. I must also be consistent and obey Matthew 7:6.

    The only time I have heard that verse was during a relationship class. That was that I should be careful who I date (as it would be potential marriage material) and not to just have sex with anyone before I commit. You meaning however, has an undertone of both an attack against me (or just this thread) and of your superiority. If not it just seemed poor usage.

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  17. menes777 says:

    Flabberghasted:

    Thats all I’m done.

    Arenbs:
    Does this mean you’re abandoning the discussion?

    I apologize if I have ran off another reasonable debater. He seemed like someone that wasn’t going to flee at the slightest opposition, I guess I was wrong. 😦

    Like

  18. Fez says:

    menes777 Says:

    I apologize if I have ran off another reasonable debater. He seemed like someone that wasn’t going to flee at the slightest opposition

    “Another” reasonable? Who was the other one? 😀

    The last reasonable (nay, only?) opposition I can recall in recent history was Mike in this thread There was a person who wasn’t so full of themselves that they could engage in a little critical self-analysis and admit when they were acting Scripturally hypocritical. I hope things are working out better for them.

    Perhaps by the, “can spell most words correctly and even groks the blockquote” metric flabber might be measured reasonable but for myself all I saw was word salad surrounding the same old tired arguments and misconceptions while at the same time completely unwilling to accept their contribution to any misunderstandings that might have occurred.

    In any case since he bothered to indicate to whom he was responding in that comment I believe I have to take the blame for his departure in frustration/credit for the kill.

    Like

  19. Flabberghasted says:

    I don’t believe I called anyone retarded unless you are referring to the metaphor I used way back earlier. And for any of you hear who think they aren’t being prideful or arrogant. I just have to say WOW! I could also add judgmental and ignorant as well but of course you would all just throw that back in my face and quote others who have come on the board or take something I said out of context or attribute negativity to something I said out of love. but I know that you all think that 2 wrongs make a right. The reason I am not continuing the discussion is that I have better things to do right now. Unless you want to ask for more money to attempt to make me look like a hypocrit if/when I refuse but I noticed no one could handle it when I actually offered to follow through. I actually discussed it with my wife before I made that post. I even thought of taking out a cash advance on my credit card to fulfill the request but that would have been in violation of a number of other scriptures.

    The only reason I feel compelled to respond one last time is because of the personal attacks and the childish attitudes of those who accused me of spelling errors. By the way if I wanted to be like you I would have pointed out every spelling error you made in your posts as well. There are a bunch. I just figured you all were above that. I guess not. Perhaps the reason people consider you prideful is because there isn’t an ounce of humility in any of your tones. And as for admitting my mistakes, go back and read my conversation with Andrew cuz I apologized a number of times. He never apologized once for the crazy claims he made about the Bible being in error about grasshoppers and bats. You all expect the Bible to be a science book. Here’s news for you….It’s not! It’s a collection of writings that make this life make sense. If God wanted us to know something about the beginning He would have…oh wait…He DID! Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t make it false any more than me believing it makes it true. If what you were seeking was admirable discussions with creationist, (which is obviously the goal here) then perhaps you all could do your part and be admirable in your discussions. Hmm, where have I heard that advice before….oh yeah God said it in the Bible. But I wouldn’t expect you all to follow advice like that since it’s all a bunch of fairy tales. You judge the world on your own standards I’m not so arrogant to presume people follow mine. If they did this world would be a mess. That is why I trust in a Creator who gave us a standard that has proven to work, undeniably, time and time and time and time again for around 6000 years for those who actually followed the words of this being who claims to be the Almighty. Proof enough for me. But I wouldn’t expect you to take the ancients words for it. If you can’t see God in your life or if your all too proud to be able to see that possibly there is someone or something else who you ultimately should be given all the credit, that is your problem. And if it be true what I believe in the end I really have nothing to worry about. (maybe I should just put Pascal’s name here instead of paraphrasing the wager.) This is why you will never admit your wrong under any circumstance because the implications Freak the crap right out of you. This is why we believers feel sorry for you because what we believe in brings us so much joy that we feel you are missing out. Ever convinced a freind to join you on a roller coaster ride they’ve never been on or heard of. If I had the same attitude as all of you and asked you to convince me that China exists you would be just as frustrated as us believers coming here.

    I will leave it at that. I promise I won’t post after this. I will leave you all to tear apart this post peice by peace. call me names and discredit my claims about the bible and bring up the same tired old ignorant rebuttals about the “Holy” wars and how religion causes 9/11 and ignorant people that believe in God are so stupid…blah…blah…blah…blah…blah. Grow up already.

    Like

  20. arensb says:

    Flabberghasted:

    2. I am still waiting for that email address to send the money

    Since this is my site, the bit after the at sign is “ooblick.com”, and the bit before, not surprisingly, is “arensb”.

    But in case you hadn’t figured it out yet, the reason for my request was not to take advantage of you, or make you look hypocritical, but to teach you an object lesson:

    Let’s say you wire me $20 just because I asked for it. What will you do when Fez does the same, and then menes777? What will you do if someone posts on Dawkins’s site that there’s a guy handing out money to all who ask? At what point will you stop doing what Jesus told you to do? At what point will you admit that this is a poor long-term strategy?

    Like

  21. Fez says:

    Flabberghasted flapped:

    You all expect the Bible to be a science book. Here’s news for you….It’s not! It’s a collection of writings that make this life make sense.

    Then stop attempting to libel science with your book of feel-good metaphors you nitwit! That’s really all that has ever been asked and expected but apparently even that’s too much for meddling know-nothings such as yourself storming around with an affected persecution complex and armed with a sense of self righteousness and a thesaurus (but obviously no dictionary nor “Little, Brown Handbook”).

    Like

  22. Flabberghasted says:

    one last thing. Andrew I did try to send you an email last night but it got bounced back.

    Like

  23. menes777 says:

    Of course I am going to pick this apart, but not because I want to just rip you to shreds. It’s something called constructive input or criticism (depending on your outlook). Also it would be selfish of you to think that I am only writing to you. Many people find and read these blogs and what I write is not only to you but anyone who wants to read it. Now onto the show…

    I don’t believe I called anyone retarded unless you are referring to the metaphor I used way back earlier.

    What you did was slap someone in the face and then stand back and say, that wasn’t a slap, that was just a metaphor for a punch. You non-committedly put an insult into your reply so later you could come back and say I wasn’t insulting anyone. It was as if I had said “You are a Xian because you are stupid”, but I did not.

    And for any of you hear who think they aren’t being prideful or arrogant. I just have to say WOW!

    If anyone who just doesn’t roll over and accept your interpretation of the bible is prideful and arrogant then I am sorry you have such a skewed outlook on life. Consider these point though. If pride is defined as a high sense of the worth of one’s self (wiki) which is to include beliefs, then who is more prideful? Who is being arrogant when they say that they know the one and only truth and that if you don’t believe you are going to hell? You seem to think that because we are rejecting your words that we must be prideful and arrogant. However would you buy ocean front property in Arizona (catchy tune)? Of course not. Would you be prideful and arrogant for not doing so? No, because it is not only impossible to have that, but the person is attempting to rip you off. The same applies to your religion, which is so ingrained into you and you are so convinced that you are right, that surely these people must be too prideful too accept it and too arrogant to think they need it. When in reality the opposite is the case, yes we (like everyone) can be prideful and arrogant, but just because we don’t want to buy the snake oil or drink the kool-aid doesn’t mean we are.

    I could also add judgmental and ignorant as well but of course you would all just throw that back in my face and quote others who have come on the board or take something I said out of context or attribute negativity to something I said out of love.

    You are right on one part, I am ignorant about many things. Ignorance simply means that I do not know, but that doesn’t mean I can’t learn and won’t try to learn. Everyone starts out life completely ignorant and then slowly grows and learns over time. As for being judgmental please take the plank out of your eye before you point out the speck in mine. All the judging I see is coming from your side. You have judged us (or maybe just me) to be prideful, arrogant, a rabid dog, a pig, and to be immature. I mentioned the fag caller to help you understand the fact that those are the types of Xians that tend to frequent these types of boards. The ones that can only spew hatred and venom, nothing that could be considered Christ like. Saying something and then saying I said it out of love doesn’t make it any better. Why don’t you tell your wife is fat and you wish she was someone else, then add in I just said it out love. See far that gets you.

    The reason I am not continuing the discussion is that I have better things to do right now.

    I could respect that if it weren’t coming on the heels of a tirade. Also if you might have noticed I go away for a few days and come back. No one is expecting you to respond the day of someone asking you a question. I suspect though that something has hit too close to home or you didn’t get the usual “Oh I didn’t know that, how can I be saved?” responses most Xians only hope to hear.

    Unless you want to ask for more money to attempt to make me look like a hypocrit if/when I refuse but I noticed no one could handle it when I actually offered to follow through. I actually discussed it with my wife before I made that post. I even thought of taking out a cash advance on my credit card to fulfill the request but that would have been in violation of a number of other scriptures.

    If you are seriously wanting to follow through with it, I have an Yahoo account using the same address as my username. (ie user name + @yahoo.com, don’t want a bot to get my email, not that I think they could). Once you contact me there, I have a paypal account I can send you the info for (although I have never gotten money on it).

    The only reason I feel compelled to respond one last time is because of the personal attacks and the childish attitudes of those who accused me of spelling errors. By the way if I wanted to be like you I would have pointed out every spelling error you made in your posts as well. There are a bunch.

    Oh yeah I make many many spelling mistakes (amongst other grammar mistakes). However, not everything is an argument or a criticism. If you reread the above we were joking with you about it. 😉 However it seems that you can only fire back like a junkyard dog instead of going with it. Since you brought it up though, there is a difference between a spelling mistake in a single sentence and one in a huge reply. Also that your and you’re thing tends to be a hot issue with me as I see it so often around these replies. I can see mispelling it (your’e or youre) but leaving it as your changes the meaning entirely.

    I just figured you all were above that. I guess not.

    Above joking with each other? Of course not. (That’s what smiley’s help get across)

    Perhaps the reason people consider you prideful is because there isn’t an ounce of humility in any of your tones.

    Another judgment you make against us. I am sure I could make everyone one of my statements sound more humble, however, would it make any difference?

    And as for admitting my mistakes, go back and read my conversation with Andrew cuz I apologized a number of times. He never apologized once for the crazy claims he made about the Bible being in error about grasshoppers and bats.

    The only mistake I think you have made is that you have attempted to interpret the bible the way you want and present it as fact and that you only want to believe what you want to believe.

    You all expect the Bible to be a science book. Here’s news for you….It’s not! It’s a collection of writings that make this life make sense.

    I never expected it to be a science book, but people like Kent Hovind, Ray Banana Man, Kirk Cameron, and so on make us want to believe it is. What I am trying to say is that science books are science books and the bible is for your religious beliefs. Nothing more and nothing less. When you attempt to use it as such of course we are going to poke holes in it. If it were bulletproof then there wouldn’t be much we could do now would there? Sort of like defending a Michael Bay film as realistic. You just can’t do it without warping some part of reality to fit your arguments.

    If God wanted us to know something about the beginning He would have…oh wait…He DID! Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t make it false any more than me believing it makes it true.

    The problem with this is that you have to believe in a your god to believe that he did it. If you don’t believe in him, then the bible means nothing. Then your whole statement means nothing to the non-believer. If you believe in your god then you must believe in the bible and thus the creation story. You take one or the other away and they mean nothing. I don’t believe the bible because it isn’t logical and therefore I don’t believe in your god. More on this later…

    If what you were seeking was admirable discussions with creationist, (which is obviously the goal here) then perhaps you all could do your part and be admirable in your discussions.

    Boy mister if you don’t think these are admirable you should see some of the real Atheist vs Xian discussions. Where you little your Faux Paux would have gone something like this

    “Are you fucking moron????!!! Don’t you know that your is possessive. Let me give you an example except you may be too stupid to understand. You’re not very smart and your name proves it. Xians are so fucking stupid.”

    So in comparison things are pretty civil here for the most part.

    Hmm, where have I heard that advice before….oh yeah God said it in the Bible. But I wouldn’t expect you all to follow advice like that since it’s all a bunch of fairy tales.

    Here you assume that we have always disbelieved the bible, some of us have grown up believing the same stories that you are talking about. The difference between a fairy tale and the bible stories are that you want to believe those stories so much that you shut out all logic and all sense of rational thought regarding them. Do you consider the Odyssey, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Beowulf, or any other fantastic fairy tale as possibly real? Of course not. We use the same logic that you used to discount those stories as we do on the bible.

    You judge the world on your own standards I’m not so arrogant to presume people follow mine. If they did this world would be a mess.

    Sorry, everyone judges the world by their own standards. It’s just human nature to have your own unique point of view on things. You have your own POV, I have mine, Fez has his, Andrew has his and so on. The world is not a mess and people do follow their own standards quite often.

    If you can’t see God in your life or if your all too proud to be able to see that possibly there is someone or something else who you ultimately should be given all the credit, that is your problem.

    Everyone who I have asked how can you see your god working in your life has said “I don’t’ know, I just know” or “It’s personal, I don’t want to share it”. Maybe I don’t see your god in my life because he’s not there? The same way I don’t see the praises of Allah or any other deities influence in my life. I don’t pretend to trick myself into thinking that the people who have helped me and the good things in my life are anything but the generosity of people, good luck and hard work.

    And if it be true what I believe in the end I really have nothing to worry about. (maybe I should just put Pascal’s name here instead of paraphrasing the wager.) This is why you will never admit your wrong under any circumstance because the implications Freak the crap right out of you.

    You know that argument can both ways right? You don’t want to to admit you are wrong because implications freak the crap out of you. However, just for the sake of argument let’s say that we are wrong (atheists), then that opens a floodgate of what might be right.

    1. What if there was a Jesus and he was the son of God?
    2. What if the Muslims are right?
    3. What if the Mormons are right?
    4. What if the Scientologists are right?
    5. What if there is a god out there that will send me to heaven but only if I die a virgin?

    The possibilities are endless, and they also apply to you. You should be worried that you are going to the Islamic hell as much as I would be. You see, the truth is that Xians (and everyone else) are just as much of atheists as atheists are, however, atheists go one god further. We disbelieve in all the gods the same as you minus one. The same mindset is shared by everyone around the world, except for instead of being absolutely sure that Jesus died for they sins they are certain that Muhammed is their man (and so on).

    This is why we believers feel sorry for you because what we believe in brings us so much joy that we feel you are missing out. Ever convinced a freind to join you on a roller coaster ride they’ve never been on or heard of.

    You can feel sorry all you want to. I don’t need to believe in a god in the sky to find happiness here. I can love someone and be loved and enjoy that without having to think of any god blessing it. I can find happiness and fulfillment in doing good works for others without thinking that I am stacking up rewards in the afterlife. It’s reward enough to see the smile on someone’s face or hear the joy of their laughter. Most of all what I find real joy in is knowing that billions of people won’t be burning in an eternal hell simply because they didn’t believe the right thing at the right time. Something I could never understand is how that many Xians can turn a blind eye to how many people will be eternally tortured. Someone else said “This god sent himself to die to create a loophole in a law that he himself created to get around judging the imperfectness of man against his own law.” Sounds very silly and it’s very said that Xians go along with it. Of course the attitude among many Xians (and conservatives) is that as long as I have mine I don’t care about anyone else. I am saved and going to heaven, so what if billions of others don’t make it? No, I feel sorry for you that you can’t find joy in life without having to believe in a god and having a religion.

    Oh and I have been on the roller coaster ride before. I was trying to be an Xian up till about 6 years ago. I tried very hard to believe, despite the evidence against. Really though the only thing that kept me a Xian was the fear of hell and the fear of what my friends and family would think of me. Plus it was all new territory to be in and it was scary. I know how deep those hooks sink and I don’t blame you when you have that initial rejection of anything that could potentially send you to hell. It’s really akin to brainwashing in it’s simplest form. When you do break those bonds those it’s a very awesome feeling.

    If I had the same attitude as all of you and asked you to convince me that China exists you would be just as frustrated as us believers coming here.

    Someone asked me “How do know space is a vacuum?” as if we can’t really tell the absence of something. In other words how would you know that god isn’t there? Well of course that was easily explained (and if you want to read it I can forward it to you). Let’s use that same level of standard with China though, how do we know China exists. After all Marco Polo could be full of hot air.

    1. There is a large number of these “Made in China” signs everywhere
    2. The Chinese language
    3. We see Chinese people (who claim to be from China)
    4. The US has an enormous amount of debt from China
    5. Pictures of China from the Olympics
    6. All those pictures of China from WWII pictures and the men who went over there
    7. Go to google maps and you can see China there
    8. China is on every map of the globe.

    Before list gets too long, we could get our passports and fly there and come back and tell everyone about it. Yes by themselves each item really doesn’t stand up, but you add up all the evidence (which there is a lot more than 8 points) and you get proof of China. Also China is going to be there whether I believe it in or not. Walmart is still going to get a lot of it’s goods from there whether I have faith in it to or not.

    This is what you don’t seem to be getting. We can’t fly to heaven and back. We can’t talk to your god. We can’t turn over a rock that says “Made by god” (maybe on Mars! LOL j/k movie joke). This evidence for your god and for the creation just aren’t there. You keep presenting us with emotions, the bible (which means nothing to a non-believer), flawed logic and shaky evidence at best. Your evidence of china would look something like this.

    1. We know China exists because it’s in this book.
    2. I believe in China because the alternative (no-China) is unbearable to think about
    3. If there were no China, how would we know to live? (if there were no god, then how would there be morals)
    4. If you don’t belive in China but if there is a China you will headed for Siberia, so it’s better just to believe in it
    5. We know China exists because we found Tokyo and that is mentioned in the book referenced in #1
    6. I just know China is there, I can’t feel it in my heart

    Maybe you are thinking that we are just being stubborn because we want to live our sinful lives without repercussion and be able to do as we please? Just take a moment and consider that we aren’t disbelieving for those reasons and consider that maybe there isn’t proof enough for us to believe it. That there isn’t enough rational or logical sense in believing what you believe. Then keep that thought and you will be close to level of frustration we are at when you think we only disbelieve for the former reasons you mentioned. You can keep thinking that all you want but it’s really just denying the real reason why we don’t believe. You know it deep down but you just refuse to let it come up (for the fears mentioned above).

    I will leave it at that. I promise I won’t post after this. I will leave you all to tear apart this post peice by peace. call me names and discredit my claims about the bible and bring up the same tired old ignorant rebuttals about the “Holy” wars and how religion causes 9/11 and ignorant people that believe in God are so stupid…blah…blah…blah…blah…blah. Grow up already.

    Again if someone calls you ignorant it’s not the same as calling you stupid. One means you just don’t know, the other means you aren’t intelligent enough to figure it out. If you want to talk about something else I have many questions for you.

    1. How did Noah carry enough food and water to last a year?
    2. When god created man how did he not know that he would need a companion? He created mates for all the other animals the first time.
    3. Did the earth flood enough to cover MOunt Everest or was that created after the flood?

    As far as growing up, it would seem you are calling the kettle black. As soon as the arguments turned against you (or you had no rebuttals) you suddenly became too busy to participate. I am going to paraphrase Q on this one “If you can’t stand a bloody nose you should stay home”. The problem is that what you are attempting to prove. If the evidence and the proof was really there Xianity should sell itself. Yet it takes people to tell you about it for it to make any possible sense at all. Then it requires a lot of rationalization and twisting to continue to believe in.

    I imagine you have either only spoken with Xians in your life or people who are missing things in their lives. Many people want to believe something greater than themselves and that there is a point to this life. So when presented with the gospel they eat it up and want more. Most of us have heard the gospel, maybe followed it and found it to be lacking. Some people just need to believe that when they die they will do something other than just blink out. It scares them to death that there might not be anything more. Some people are ready to accept that once their time is up they cease to exist. I’m sorry that not everyone treats you with kid gloves here, but like I said before it’s relatively mild compared to some places. Imagine if someone came here and started posting crap about flat earth or how the sun went around the earth? Would we be prideful and arrogant to tell them they are wrong? Of course not, because there is evidence to the contrary.

    BTW don’t forget to email me, I could really use $20😛

    Like

  24. menes777 says:

    “Another” reasonable? Who was the other one?😀

    The last reasonable (nay, only?) opposition I can recall in recent history was Mike in this thread There was a person who wasn’t so full of themselves that they could engage in a little critical self-analysis and admit when they were acting Scripturally hypocritical. I hope things are working out better for them.

    Oh yeah I remember Gangsta Mike🙂 I was beginning to worry I was a thread killer. 🙂

    Like

  25. Dennis says:

    I always liked Kent Hovind. But he, in my opinion, should have been a little softer on his evangelistic approach. He would have won more converts. Most evangelists who start naming names and playing God get put in place by God, I think. And unfortunately i think that’s what happened in Kent’s case. Got to pay your taxes, all there is to it. Unto Caesar’s what is Caesar’s and all that.
    His message on Creation is fascinating to me. The Canopy Theory is easier to believe than the period-sized big bang from nothing. If only science would CONSIDER God and the flood, etc. it would be much more open and productive.
    For instance, just recently I saw on Discovery (I couldn’t believe it!) where a dino bone was cut in half to get on a helicopter. They found BLOOD VESSELS INSIDE – SOFT TISSUE!!!
    Did you see that on the news? Of course not. Google it. It’s true. WHAT A STORY!! But no one touches it because it’s not the PC thing to do.
    Could that dino bone have been even 10,000 years old and still have soft tissue? Let alone MILLIONS OF YEARS, as they claim. No way!! And guess what they said. They said, “Gee, I guess we’ll have to re evaluate the way things age.” CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT!!!??? They didn’t even CONSIDER that it might possibly be only a few thousand years old. They have too much faith in their religion of evolution.
    GO KENT! BUT FOLLOW THE LAWS THIS TIME.
    Dennis

    Like

  26. Fez says:

    Dennis Says:

    For instance, just recently I saw on Discovery (I couldn’t believe it!) where a dino bone was cut in half to get on a helicopter. They found BLOOD VESSELS INSIDE – SOFT TISSUE!!!
    Did you see that on the news? Of course not.

    You mean this story from the 2005 Los Angeles Times? Guess it can’t be since you implied it didn’t exist “on the news.”

    More studying and less time with the kooky conspiracy theories, son.

    Like

  27. arensb says:

    Here’s 5000 more stories in that nonexistent news coverage.

    If only science would CONSIDER God and the flood, etc. it would be much more open and productive.

    If you’d paid more attention in history of science class, you’d know that Ye Floode was disproven long before Darwin, by scientists who were staunch creationists (including some ministers), but who were too honest to deny the evidence they saw.

    And do you honestly think there’s ever been any difficulty finding a scientist willing to consider the idea that there might be a god?

    You’ve got it backwards: the reason we are where we are today because ideas about gods and magic have been tested over and over and over and always found wanting.

    The Canopy Theory is easier to believe than the period-sized big bang from nothing.

    Two questions:
    1) Why do you think the universe gives a rat’s ass what you find easier to believe?
    2) Where’s the evidence for a canopy?

    Like

  28. Chad says:

    Does the Earth have Rings? Even though the idea is dismissed by a theory just thought up in their mind and explained away without any depth. The article still admits there is evidence for rings of ice crystals that if looked into further might just reveal evidence of an ice canopy. But we wouldn’t want to waste our money searching for that…would we?

    Like

  29. arensb says:

    evidence for rings of ice crystals that if looked into further might just reveal evidence of an ice canopy.

    Or it might be evidence of the Rainbow Bridge to Asgard. Have you considered that?

    Seriously, though, show me the math: how much water would there be in the sort of canopy that Hovind proposes? How big a ring would that make? How quickly would it lose material? What would its orbit be? And most importantly, what should we expect to see if it’s really there?

    And if we don’t find what you predict we should find, will you admit that you’re wrong?

    Like

  30. Chad says:

    All great questions. I am not qualified to answer. but that is the point. Scientists wouldn’t even bother to spend the time to investigate it. They dismiss all possibilities besides their own preconceived conclusions. It would be nice to see an objective study on the possibility. All efforts thus far have been one sided.

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  31. Troublesome Frog says:

    Chad:

    One-sided in the sense that Hovind has done the calculation and people are ignoring it, or one-sided in the sense that he just sort of threw it out there and nobody else has stopped what they’re doing to do the calculations for him? There is an important difference.

    I think that we should start by deciding how much water it would take to cover the entire planet. How deep should the water be? Once you define that, a good back-of-the-envelope calculation is to approximate the Earth a and then subtract its volume from a sphere whose radius is larger by the depth of the water you’ve specified. That will give you a good (and unbelievably huge) number.

    If you can come up with a good way of distributing that water so we’d not notice it (plenty of room up in space, so there’s definitely a solution), we could start calculating how much energy it would take to get it up there (or how much energy would be released if it fell from where it is) to see if it makes sense. If it doesn’t make sense, would you abandon the idea?

    Like

  32. Chad says:

    No, one sided in the fact that any studies done by “legitimate” scientists have had a motive of disproving the idea.

    Like

  33. Chad says:

    BTW I never claimed that the rings still exist. They wouldn’t. The article even stated why they wouldn’t last long. But there are remnants and the article stated that there is evidence that suggests there could have been rings at some point in Earth’s past.

    Like

  34. arensb says:

    Chad:

    No, one sided in the fact that any studies done by “legitimate” scientists have had a motive of disproving the idea.

    Because obviously, NASA, ESA, the Chinese space agency and others have absolutely no interest in a ring of ice that their satellites might be passing through, and how that might affect telecommunications, weather prediction, spying, etc.

    None of the tens of thousands of amateur astronomers, who normally aspire to make a name for themselves by discovering a new asteroid or comet, has managed to take a picture of a ring around the Earth. The same goes for the thousands upon thousands of astronomy grad students toiling away in thankless anonymity.

    And AIG, which was able to spend millions of dollars to build a creationism museum, hasn’t been able to round up a few astronomers and/or engineers to figure out where this ring is and take pictures.

    No congressman in this Christian nation has ever been able to tack an earmark for ring research onto an appropriations bill.

    Seriously, is that what you’re suggesting? Are you saying that there’s an international cabal of scientists so powerful that it can prevent Joe Backyard Astronomer in Topeka from publishing findings of an actual honest-to-god ring around the earth (but at the same time can’t stop Richard Hoagland from spreading moon landing hoax rumors)?

    How is that more reasonable than saying that there is no such ring, and no evidence that there ever was one?

    Here’s your homework assignment: spend some time on Google News (or something similar) and try to find instances of scientists being surprised at their findings. Look for scientist “we were surprised” or something.

    Note how the scientists react. Are they angry? Despondent? Happy? Excited? Saddened?

    Like

  35. Chad says:

    Andrew,

    As I stated in my last post. The rings would likely no longer exist. There would be no current observation available today. Other than perhaps small amounts of ice crystals floating around that HAVE been detected and are passed off as man made space debris from launch vehicles. All I am saying is that it is possible and it shouldn’t be disregarded. Just because there is a “logical” explanation for something, does not mean that any other possibility is impossible. It just means we can’t observe it. But you go ahead and hold tight to your religion and I’ll hold tight to mine. We see things in a totally different perspective. I walk by faith and you walk by sight. It’s kewl, I get it. And you have every right to believe what you want. But while your looking for the answers…and never satisfied. I will sit back and enjoy the simplicity and beauty of life. If you wanna take a picture of distant stars and galaxies….go for it…it only makes me even more in awe of the Creator. If you want to observe the complexities of God’s creation…you are free to do so. I will only humble myself further in the sight of God. Just don’t act so surprised and offended when those who have a freedom you cannot comprehend lash back at you for attempting to discredit and spit in the face of that freedom. From a believer in Christ’s perspective you are attempting to tear away their freedom and hope and if what you say is true they know that we are all hopelessly lost and alone. The fact of the matter is, there is no WAY to prove the non-existence of God any more that one can “prove” the existence of God.

    BTW I find conspiracy theories, mildly entertaining but I would never promote one. I think all I ever said was that it was possible and one has to admit can be added to the mounting list of possible explanations for the existence of God.

    Like

  36. Fez says:

    Chad,

    To phrase your perspective another way – you are comfortable in your ignorance of the natural world and have no interest in the relative validity of alternative explanations to your “goddidit” beliefs.

    That’s fine, for yourself. You however err when you attempt to paint yourself as some kind of victim of the “religion” of science because nobody listens to you. You don’t get to set the rules of engagement. You seem to have forgotten that you are the one who stormed in here leveling accusations of willful suppression by the scientific community yet have offered up nothing more than conspiracy-theory conjecture to support your libel. If you are going to launch an attack on science then do so as a scientist and that includes, but is not limited to, providing the supporting evidence for your accusations.

    You can perhaps start with detailing your arguments supporting this accusation of yours:

    …you are attempting to tear away their freedom and hope and if what you say is true they know that we are all hopelessly lost and alone.

    What particular freedom of yours are you at risk of losing or being denied? What action or actions has arensb engaged in to remove that freedom from you? How are you defining ‘hope’ and how does an individual irrevocably lose their hope solely through the words of another? What de facto responsibility does arensb or any other participant here have towards any other participant?

    Like

  37. arensb says:

    Chad:

    The rings would likely no longer exist. There would be no current observation available today. Other than perhaps small amounts of ice crystals floating around that HAVE been detected and are passed off as man made space debris from launch vehicles. All I am saying is that it is possible and it shouldn’t be disregarded.

    Why not? It seems that you’ve presented two hypotheses: 1) the ice crystals were formed by rocket launches, which we know exist, because we’ve seen them, and understand how they work, and 2) a magical and highly unstable ice dome invented as an ad hoc rationalization to prop up a bronze age myth without a shred of evidence to back it up. Why shouldn’t we discard the second hypothesis, at least until some good evidence shows up?

    Also, you obviously disregarded my earlier idea that this might be the remnants of the Rainbow Bridge. Why?

    Just because there is a “logical” explanation for something, does not mean that any other possibility is impossible.

    “Other possibility” meaning “illogical”? I think I’ll stick with logical, thank you.

    But while your looking for the answers…and never satisfied. I will sit back and enjoy the simplicity and beauty of life.

    In other words, “Aw, man! Figuring stuff out is hard! I’ll just say “Magic man done it!”, and stop thinking.”

    From a believer in Christ’s perspective you are attempting to tear away their freedom and hope

    Sounds like you’re asking for the right to not have your ideas criticized. Sorry, ain’t gonna happen. I realize that religions have a long tradition of demanding undeserved respect (and even of setting critics on fire), but we’re past that now.

    The fact of the matter is, there is no WAY to prove the non-existence of God any more that one can “prove” the existence of God.

    The same thing goes for Santa Claus and Russell’s teapot orbiting Saturn. I’m not asking for ironclad, 100% proof of anything. All I’m asking is, which things are most likely to be true, and which ones most likely to be false?

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